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Post by kpmatt on May 19, 2015 18:55:14 GMT -5
Anyone seen Geoff Victor's recent (May 7) youtube video on his modifications?
I find it very interesting. He shows his custom jib dimensions, which by my calculations makes it only 31 sq feet - not much bigger than a stock Wave jib (but obviously with the ability to downhaul, luff tension, shape, sheeting angle all that the difference is going to be greater still). Actually, looking at the Bigfoot photos on this site, it doesn't look much bigger than stock - similar to Geoff Victor's sail actually.
There's more there than just the jib.
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Post by Thunderstruck on May 20, 2015 7:18:17 GMT -5
I've been following his videos for quite some time now and I have learned so much.
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Post by Hammbone on May 20, 2015 8:46:47 GMT -5
Geoff Victor does have a lot of great info there. I've been following his videos for a while now too. His jib is about the same height as "Bigfoot", but a little wider at the bottom. Both "Bigfoot" and Geoff Victor's jib are only slightly larger than stock as noted by kpmatt. There's just not really room for anything bigger than these on the Wave, especially after you rake the mast back. I'll take the little bit more that these jibs provide though. I might get a jib with Geoff's dimensions and give it a try too. I wonder if there's really much difference in that main sail Geoff victor is using? I see that a couple of the battens are positioned a little differently, but the shape looks about the same. Again, I don't think you could really make it much bigger. I thought it was interesting that he shortened his EZ Loc tiller arms even more (they are the ones that are already short). My tiller crossbar is in front of my main sheet, and I'm thinking about moving it back by shortening my tiller arms. I was out in 12 to 15mph winds a few days ago, and my bows were starting to dig in a little. I wanted to move back on the hull, but couldn't because of my tiller crossbar. I'm actually thinking I would like to have 2 different crossbar/tiller arm set ups, a short one (behind the main sheet) for high wind days, and a long one (in front of the main sheet) for low wind days. Jim
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Post by DreamWeaver on May 25, 2015 20:44:47 GMT -5
The bigfoot isn't any bigger than stock. it's just the sheeting angles I use and how I do it. The wave is fastest on a reach and I easily reach speeds in 15-20 that others do in 25-35's. I actually have exceeded the hydrodynamic properties of the hulls LOL. It's actually so fast and powerful that there's no way to run my large jib once it goes above 20. The blade drives it fine. Mine is set up similar to an H14 Turbo but with the cable on the top instead of the bottom of the tramp. What it does is gives me infinite options to create different tensions on the clew exactly like the clew plate on a H16(I used to sail). I can simultaneously change the sheeting angles AND change the tension on the leach and the foot of the jib all at the same time. I have clocked speeds mark to mark using a stopwatch and video footage of 19mph avg speed. That's smokin' on a wave. A H16 will do low to mid 20's all day long.
A 16 has a traveler on the front crossbar (as my setup emulates but in the middle of the tramp like a H14) to change sheeting angles. The jib has a clew plate with several holes in it. Attach your sheet to the furthest hole to stern and pull down harder on the leach enabling the jib to hold more air. Move forward and pull more back on the foot creating a flatter sail allowing air to spill off the mid and top.
Lastly, mast rake is critical in 8-15's. If you're fully rake the wave will be a dog in those winds. I always move 1-2 hole forward in 10-15's. Much faster and way more fun to sail. I think I've posted this before but I'll reiterate; be sure and set the max rake on the sail so it's difficult to sheet tight the last couple of inches. Look at the top of the sail. It should close fully. It's easy to be fooled thinking that it's right when setting the rake all the way back. Under wind load the blocks should touch but with a heck of a lot of effort. Need to make sure your sail will fully power up especially when using the traveler. Which usually isn't an issue. You'll notice when traveler is set to center and the rake is correct the blocks will touch together with some effort. When the traveler is moved out from center the distance from the clew of the main and the cleat on the traveler increases therefore you won't be able to go block to block with the traveler moved out. If you see videos of guys block to block with the traveler fully out on the wave, most likely the rake is set too far aft and sheeting block to block with the traveler centered will result in a mainsail not closing fully at the top automatically de-powering it. A 6:1 like what Hammbone uses enables a tremendous amount of force to be applied to the mainsheet so going tight is much easier.
This video there were occasional gusts to 20 but mostly 10-15. This was the small jib and I should have raked forward one more hole.
This video is 10-15's and was running the larger jib raked 2 holes forward from max. Should have gone 1 more hole forward. There are a few speed runs where you can tell it was really cookin'. Also, notice the angle of the sheet coming off the jib clew to the block. It's not pulling back or down. it's neutral and if you were to snap a line from the block all the way to the head of the sail it would be a straight line. Equal tension pulling down AND back. Also notice most of this footage I am pinching on a very close reach. Look at the waves. Smokin' only maybe 10 deg' off the wind. Great example of how fast these boats are on a reach. Never be able to do this with the factory sheeting angles.
Best of luck with your mods folks! Have fun and happy sailing!
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axsip
New Member
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Post by axsip on May 26, 2015 9:23:24 GMT -5
Hi steve. Could you tell me how you put your stays to create the rake? most of the time i sail in 8 to 13 knots, what i the best adjutment on the stays to be faster? Thank you
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Post by Hammbone on May 26, 2015 9:54:41 GMT -5
I'm sure Steve will answer you, but I'd like to point out that it's hard to convey how much rake we have to each other. Shrouds, bridle wires, and forestays are all different lengths (depending on manufacturer, etc.), and people use different connectors and adjusters too. "two holes from the bottom of the adjuster" is just not the same thing boat to boat. I have a local friend with a Wave, and he can't get full "block to block" rake with his Wave because his shrouds are too long.
The only way to accurately measure rake is to level the boat, and raise the mast with a plumb line running down from the top of the mast, and measure how far back that plumb line is from the bottom of the mast. My measurement is 52" for what I call "block to block" mast rake. That measurement is taken without the main sail sheeted, so there's no tension on the mast.
As Steve pointed out, what we call full mast rake is when the main sheet blocks can almost touch when you use a good amount of force to sheet in. Make sure that you don't rake the mast back so far that your main sheet blocks will bottom out (touch) while sailing. Even "block to block" might not be the same amount of rake boat to boat as some guys (like me) have different blocks than the stock blocks.
Hope that helps,
Jim
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Post by DreamWeaver on May 26, 2015 12:29:23 GMT -5
Excellent observations Jim and thanks for the clarity. Assumption is the mother of all $#@!@#$%^&%$! hahaha. I couldn't get block to block on mine with the factory blocks and adjuster/shrouds/forestay either. Made some up. All I can say is the first time you go out in 15-20+ and it pitch poles or you can't keep the bows from digging, you're raked too far forward Or powered up too much. That's why I wanted a block setup that's as low profile as possible. IMO, they're not low profile enough LOL. The traveler helps a lot but will make the boat go much faster in heavy air. AND flatter! The first time you experience it it'll be nerve wracking. It's FAST!Mast rake will be even more critical when using the traveler for sure. For example, often sailors on H16's will never actually let out the mainsheet to depower when flying a hull. They will release the traveler and let it out some to lower the hull. Theoretically, a cat is fastest when the windward hull is just barely touching the water. You can see the boat slow down as the hull flies. It's because when the sail leans over more air spills off the top of the sail as it's not perpendicular to the wind. So, leave the traveler centered to fly and move it out with the mainsheet tight(fully powered up and the top closed) to haul ass. Hope that makes sense.
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Post by Hammbone on May 26, 2015 16:01:31 GMT -5
Lastly, mast rake is critical in 8-15's. If you're fully raked the wave will be a dog in those winds. I always move 1-2 hole forward in 10-15's. Much faster and way more fun to sail. Why is this? If full mast rake makes the Wave faster in high winds, why wouldn't full mast rake be faster in moderate winds as well? Is it just a matter of boat balance? Or is it something else? Jim
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Post by DreamWeaver on May 26, 2015 16:18:42 GMT -5
Yup, you'll notice a cat will be on almost half plane looking in light winds with the mast at full rake. A balance issue I guess. It's pretty obvious if you try both ways on a light wind day. There's always a happy middle ground. Here's a good article on rake although it's not exclusive to cats: www.getwetsailing.com/mastrakeandrigsetup/I remember one of the first times I went out on the Wave. It was crankin' and then the wind just died. I was at full rake and in light air the boat would barely move in 5 mph winds. I've gone out with my daughter in 5-7's with the mast almost vertical and had a ball cruising around the lake. Watch this video closely. You'll notice how the bows are sticking up like the stern is sinking. Too much rake for the winds that day. It would calm down and then all of a sudden there be a strong puff for about 30 seconds and die again. Too much rake will ruin your day when the winds are light when it is quite possible to have some fun with a cooler of beer cruising around the lake relaxing. ;-)
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Post by Hammbone on May 26, 2015 18:49:09 GMT -5
Ok, that makes sense, but does moving the mast forward just 1 or 2 holes really make that much difference?
Jim
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Post by DreamWeaver on May 26, 2015 19:21:04 GMT -5
Oh yea it does. Remember one hole forward on the adjuster moves the top of the mast a whole lot more than 1 inch. That's why it's important to have a jib cut so that you can at least use it on the lighter wind days when it's really useful. If it's cut too long, you'll rake forward and you won't be able to get the jib hoisted. Sucks, I know as that's what happened to me when first setting up.
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Post by Hammbone on May 26, 2015 19:37:48 GMT -5
OK, thanks. If it will ever stop raining here, maybe I'll get a chance to experience all this for myself!
Jim
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Post by DreamWeaver on May 26, 2015 19:38:27 GMT -5
Hi steve. Could you tell me how you put your stays to create the rake? most of the time i sail in 8 to 13 knots, what i the best adjutment on the stays to be faster? Thank you 1 st you need to find out where you're at. This will need to be done with the mainsail in place. Step the mast. Have your forestay adjuster pinned at the top last hole(for max rake). You will need to set the tension on the sidestays. If you don't have a mainsheet traveler, you can run a rope through the halyard hook(make sure and tie off the end of the main halyard to the cleat on the mast) and back to the rear corner of the boat or prefferably the trailer and tie it off pulling fairly hard. This will tension the rigging to one side and you will notice the shroud wire will go slack. remove the pin and move the shroud down 1 or 2 holes in the adjuster. Do the same for the other side assuring that both sides are equal. Do NOT over tension the rigging. Waves like to be a little loose and the mast is designed to rotate. Too much tension will prevent that. Now, hoist your mainsail and connect the blocks and haul down tight on them. If you can get the blocks to touch your good to go with the blocks you're using. If not you have a couple of options:1, assuming you have a little room to play with on the side stays and you can go one or 2 more holes down but you have nothing left on your forestay, you can add a heavy duty bow shackle to the forestay.That will likely get you block to block. The other option is to have a custom set of shrouds and forestay made for you. It's not expensive. Basically you need to lengthen the forestay or add a 10 hole adjuster and shorten your shrouds. Most likely you could put a 10 hole adjuster on the forestay but the shrouds will bottom out in the last hole. If you replace the shrouds I would do the forestay as well. Does that make sense? Max performance settings? Racers actually adjust rake and mast rotation depending on conditions "when" they're actually sailing. We don't have that luxury so keeping it simple, which is what the Wave was designed for, in light air rake forward(more upright mast). In heavy air rake back. Raking back in any air will scrub speed BUT the benefit is a much reduced tendency of pitch poling thereby actually making much higher speeds possible. Hope that helps. When it's really blowing, the saying goes; "Rig it...Rake it...Rip it!
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Post by DreamWeaver on May 26, 2015 19:41:56 GMT -5
OK, thanks. If it will ever stop raining here, maybe I'll get a chance to experience all this for myself! Jim I am getting ready to light that thing up. It's been blowing here for a while (Been 10-20 every day for about 5 days straight) and tomorrow I'm doing some more work and clean up to the boat. I will be posting some pics of how I mount the camera as well. Need to put a coat of wax on the mast and rub the bolt track in the mast with parafin wax and also the bolt on the main itself. The mainsail flies thru it when you do that. few stupid little things here and there and be out tearing it up.
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samo
New Member
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Post by samo on Sept 5, 2015 11:52:00 GMT -5
Hello, I'm from Slovenia and new on this forum I'm a bit slow, so I'd like to be fast with my new Hobie Wave . First I like to modifie stock jib I have. Maybe it is explained some where on this forum, but I didn't find it. My English is bad I now.. I'd like to make it like you did Steve. Can you put some close pictures and measurements of this adjustments you made behind the mast. I saw in your videos you put some rope behind the mast for fixing the Jib. (like a traveler for main) Thank you in advance Samo
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